Good conversation. It clarifies Coleman's position, and Bob is right to focus on Coleman's essentialism. Let's conduct a variation on Coleman's experiment: God makes all the Jews move to Gaza and the West Bank, and He gives Arabs control the state of Israel. God makes Israel treat the Jews the same as today's Israel treats Palestinians. …
Good conversation. It clarifies Coleman's position, and Bob is right to focus on Coleman's essentialism. Let's conduct a variation on Coleman's experiment: God makes all the Jews move to Gaza and the West Bank, and He gives Arabs control the state of Israel. God makes Israel treat the Jews the same as today's Israel treats Palestinians. Now examine the prevailing identities of the two cultures. Who is now obsessed with the other party? Who is obsessed with regaining their rightful land?
Robin, I have provided a thought experiment. What do you think are the results of the experiment? What do you conclude from the results?
I think Jewish Israelis would long to be free in their homeland. I think that there would be a strident call (dominant, but maybe not a majority) to push Arabs out of Israel. In other words, like now with roles reversed.
I conclude (rather, I already believe), that the hardened identity Coleman perceives, (misperceives, I think, in the generality that he states it), is a pretty immediate product of circumstances and human nature, and not something special about Palestinians or their culture.
Just one point of information. The education system in Gaza, before Israel destroyed it, was very good. Palestinians were proud of it. They did not build that education system driven by an identity whose "constitutive center" is a desire to rid the land of Jews.
I support Bob's pattern of treating peoples (plural) as fundamentally rational (with predictable human emotional reactions) and focusing attention on political solutions.
Assuming the Israelis have no chance of regaining the land, what would you suggest they do with the rest of their lives? Whine endlessly or create a new nation in Gaza?
I'm pretty sure Jews would accept the facts on the ground and make the most of it. They always have.
This is incredibly uncharitable, bordering on hostile. Palestinians don't "whine endlessly" – there have been many peaceful protests (see Great March of Return) that have been met with rounds from an IDF sniper.
Good conversation. It clarifies Coleman's position, and Bob is right to focus on Coleman's essentialism. Let's conduct a variation on Coleman's experiment: God makes all the Jews move to Gaza and the West Bank, and He gives Arabs control the state of Israel. God makes Israel treat the Jews the same as today's Israel treats Palestinians. Now examine the prevailing identities of the two cultures. Who is now obsessed with the other party? Who is obsessed with regaining their rightful land?
It is interesting that you seem to think that you made some kind of slam-dunk of an argument here.
Robin, I have provided a thought experiment. What do you think are the results of the experiment? What do you conclude from the results?
I think Jewish Israelis would long to be free in their homeland. I think that there would be a strident call (dominant, but maybe not a majority) to push Arabs out of Israel. In other words, like now with roles reversed.
I conclude (rather, I already believe), that the hardened identity Coleman perceives, (misperceives, I think, in the generality that he states it), is a pretty immediate product of circumstances and human nature, and not something special about Palestinians or their culture.
Just one point of information. The education system in Gaza, before Israel destroyed it, was very good. Palestinians were proud of it. They did not build that education system driven by an identity whose "constitutive center" is a desire to rid the land of Jews.
I support Bob's pattern of treating peoples (plural) as fundamentally rational (with predictable human emotional reactions) and focusing attention on political solutions.
--David
a little more civility would be desirable, I'd think.
Assuming the Israelis have no chance of regaining the land, what would you suggest they do with the rest of their lives? Whine endlessly or create a new nation in Gaza?
I'm pretty sure Jews would accept the facts on the ground and make the most of it. They always have.
This is incredibly uncharitable, bordering on hostile. Palestinians don't "whine endlessly" – there have been many peaceful protests (see Great March of Return) that have been met with rounds from an IDF sniper.
They are not refugees. They have no right of return. Their home is Gaza.
A Palestinian state should be recognized in Gaza and UNRWA should be ended.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. It comes down to whether or not you accept International law; clearly you don't .